Did the replacement of Kes with 7of9 make the show better, or was a sham attempt to boost ratings with boobies in a catsuit?

Kes served her purpose. Seven was a great add to the show.

I found the evil Kes way more interesting than the whiney, nasal kes.

I <3 boobies.

Kes was worthless. 7of9 was better.

i think 7 was a much better character. the way she was introduced was great, but apart from that i didnt really like Kes much, she was a little soppy and eventually just got more and more annoying. i musch more enjoyed the character of 7... but the boobs were an attempt ar rating i think which was partially a shame.

I don't think 7 was a better character, but I also don't think she was a worse character. I do, however, believe the the replacement of Kes was neccessary. One of the main things that Trek characters need is the development of their background. This helps us gain a better perspective of who they are. With Kes, well, she was only a year old when we first saw her. To an Ocampan, that's like 20 years, but to us, that's a walk in the park. There's only so much about her past that could be covered, and it basically was. Sure, we could've watched her grow beyond what she was, but that's all there was left to her.

I like Kes, and really hated 7 of 9 when the episodes were first aired, but when I look back on it I think they made the right choice.

Though I always liked Kes, her character did have a tendency to be one-dimensional, the writers didn't seem to know what to do with her, other than to have her loose control of her powers every now and then.

I wasn't thrilled with Seven at first (as I seem to be the only Trek fan who finds the whole Borg thing boring and a dramatic dead end). However, Seven's search for her humanity grew on me (as did Jeri Ryan's acting abilities). This was one of my favorite characters by the time the series ended, and the one I most want to know "what happened to?" (I always knew Janeway would get an Admiralship when they got back... funny, whenever we sit down to watch TNG, my partner is always asking "are there any MALE admirals in the 24th century?" )

Seven greatest moment for me was at the funeral of the 21st century astronaut from Earth... "the Yankees, in 5 games" made me cry for about 10 minutes...

(and not because I'm a Yankee fan Schmiddy!) :bye:

Kes was boring. She was mostly there to have everything explained to viewers who couldn't follow what was going on, or why.

While I think the motive for choosing Jeri Ryan to play 7of9 is at best disappointing, the character certainly was far more interesting than Kes.

Yes, it was wrong.

Kes was a great character, one of the best ever in Star Trek. She really personified the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore, a spirit which was gone when she was kicked out.

Kes was fascinating. Nice and beautiful, yes but also strong-willed, determined, smart, curious and brave. An excellent character!

Seven was just an empty shell in a nice package. A cheap effort to attract male teeenage viewers which normally didn't watch Star Trek, all with the purpose of "sex sells". It clearly show how deep Star Trek has sunk when they no longer bother to try to come up with good stories which once was the trademark of Star Trek, instead they go for cheap sex and cheap effects. Just look at it, a woman with big boobs in a catsuit and high heels on a starship in which is supposed to be a serie about the adventures of a starship crew stranded on the other side of the galaxy. How ridiculous! And people are buying the concept!

Not to mention how rude the actress Jennifer Lien was treated. Kicked out for no acceptable reason at all after three years of excellent work just because some stupid fools in charge didn't find her "sexy enough" for their show. Bastards!

The way the character Kes and the actress Jennifer Lien was treated is a shame and disgust for Star Trek and paramount.

I like both charcters...


I think sevens outfit was a shameless ratings boost....but at the same time...shes was a great charcter!

It was.

I happen to think that kes looked better with the short hair than with the long and curls.

I wish kes had stuck around longer, but i had no problem with seven of nine.

I always found kes irritating. And the whole thing with her and neelix just didn't ring true for me.

Kes irritating?

Not at all. She is an excellent character, one of the best ever in Star Trek.

:wtf:

we must have been watching different shows, I was watching the one where this character was a mixture of the bad elements of Deanna Troi and some random female ensign and she had the hots for this ugly cat like alien cook who really didn't have a place that he fit in after like season one and who generates countless threads where people plot his death
then she suddenly got long hair and her "powers" got a bit on the rediculous side before she finally melted into nothing in a shuttle craft, only to come back a crazed maniac and somehow be even lamer then before :thumbs:

Kes was 'ok' I guess, but it's the overstatement of the century to call her one of the greatest Trek characters ever :lmao:

Meanwhile Seven of Nine (whom you hate) not only was much hotter, but also had a much better character and was portrayed by a much better actress (and as you retort that the woman who played Kes is the best ever, how many other things has she been in since Trek?) :blind:

To be fair to Jennifer Lien, she was in "American History X", and that is by far one of the greatest films ever made. It also stars Avery Brooks and the super hot Edward Norton. If you haven't seen it, please do... but don't forget the tissues, because you'll need them.

And don't drop the soap either, because... yeah...

Well, my comments about Kes might be a bit exaggerated but I just have to contradict all negative comments about the character and the actress in some way.

I don't see Kes as a "bad Deanna Troi". Without downgrading Troi, who I actually like, I must state that kes was a better character and had more potential.

Kes's mental powers weren't ridiculous in seasons 1,2 and 3. They became ridiculous in "The Gift" when the "writers" desperately tried to get rid of her as soon as possible and came up with that cartoon-like story.

As for "Fury", I won't go into that. A bad, insulting story where the character we saw was as far away from the real Kes as possible.

As for Kes's longer hair in season 3, it was because jennifer Lien had an allergic reaction from the stuff which was used to attach the Ocampa ears on her head. By letting her have long hair they could omit the Ocampa ears.

As for her outfits in the later episodes of season 3, it was just a silly attempt from those in charge to "sex up" the character. Have they never heard of or appreciated natural beauty? Do they always have to have at least one "sexy" character?

As for Seven Of Nine, I don't hate the character. I can accept her as part of Voyager and I understand that many fans like her (for different reasons). But I find her very over-rated and I must also admit that it's hard for me to like the character because of the fact that Kes was kicked out to make room for her and because the debates always ends up in that "Kes or Seven" question. Many Seven fans do show some malice over the fact that Kes was kicked out, probably because if she hadn't been kicked out, their favorite would never have been brought in. But Kim was actually the first choice for being kicked out when they wanted to make room for Seven. They changed that when some stupid magazine had Garret Wang among "the 50 most handsome".

As for Jeri Ryan, she's a good actress. But I don't find her better than Mulgrew, Lien, Picardo, Beltran or any other Voyager cast member.

Jennifer Lien did participate in the excellent movie "American History X". Right now, she's living a happy family life with her husband and a four-year old son. Taking care of her son might be a reason why she hasn't been in any movie or TV-series in the recent years. Maybe she also got tired of the ghastly business after being brutally fired from Voyager for not being "sexy" enough for the show?

She didn't get fired for not being sexy enough...because the other females weren't at all sexy either. She got fired because her character sucked.

Wrong!

You might think that she "sucked" but she wasn't fired for that reason. I don't think that your opinion had any importance when the decision was made.

She was fired because the sex-obsessed fools in charge of the show wanted a "sexy babe" to attract male teenagers who normally don't watch Star Trek. Therefore they brought in a woman with big boobs in a catsuit. But since there were too greedy to have ten main characters, one of the originals had to go. The first choice was Garret Wang (Kim). Bu when a silly inside poll in a stupid magazine showed him among the "50 most handsome", The Idiots In Charge changed their minds and kicked out Kes instead.

So the message that Jennifer Lien actually got from those nice, benevolent people in charge was. "Sorry, you are not sexy enough for the show. It doesn't matter that you are a great actress and that you have done a terrific job for three years. We need a sexy babe with big boobs dressed in a catsuit to get the ratings up and since you are not exactly that and you are not voted among the 50 most handsome in some scandal magazine either, then you must go".

That Kes was an excellent character with great premise didn't matter either. It was all about sex and stupidity from those in charge.

wow... calm down. everyone is entitled to an opinion. HOWEVER

it was also partly her decision i had heard, as she was offered another job which was never followed up on. I also think that the plots were heading that way anyway. she was growing power all of the time and there were so many instances where it could have been dangerous. Its good to occasionally write people out of shows, it keeps them more realistic. In real life there wouldnt nessesarily be one group of people that would stay together that long without something happening.

It may not have been fair on her because she was a good character, but she wasnt just suddenly writtain out, it evolved that way. Personally i didnt like her character. i enjoyed watching her but i felt more for other characters. I was shocked when they made her leave, but i wouldnt have said it supprised me. i just presumed that 7 would be another addition, not a replacment.

Sorry, but you are wrong too.

The "partly her decision" theory is just based on a rumor. Jennifer Lien had no intention to quit Star trek Voyager and was surprised and shocked when she was told that she was not wanted anymore.

The same for the "plot where heading that way" too. It also looks like one after-construction. Kes's powers were never growing until "The Gift" when TIIC wanted to get rid of her as soon as possible. In fact, in season 3 it looked like Kes would be a more important member of the crew. Her break-up with Neelix (although badly handled), the attepts to prolong her lifespan together with other events, particularily in episodes like "Before And After", "Darkling" and "Scorpion#1" showed that Kes could have a more important role, a scenario which was drastically changed when she was kicked out for no acceptable reeason at all.

I don't agree with your statement that "it's good to occasionally write people out of shows" because it might end up in dissapointed fans leaving the show (as I did with Voyager, my only regret is that I gave it another chance and actually watched the episodes between "The Gift" and "Fury" which was a mistake. After "Fury" I gave up.)

In that case, they could have written out the entire crew, except for Seven because all the other characters became obsolete and superflous when Super-Seven took over the show.

ok, fair enough. she was a lovable character, it is a shame they wrote her out. So i will drop my argument about why she actually left.

however with the characters being writtain out thing, i actually think its a better thing to do than always just kill extras, because that is ALWAYS expected, it is never origional, and to actualy get rid or a regullar character is much more shocking and provides so many more possabilities.

It may have been there actually wern't that many more things you could do with kes's character, it could be because they wanted a more sexy oriantated character, even though i think kes was really pretty. It could have been because of rasons that were never actually disspached, like money issues or disputes with scripts.

Unfortionatly by scorpion and darkling the writers probably allready knew they were going to get rid of her so tried to send her out with a few really good episodes first. i wont pretend to know what happened.

I think the way she actually left was fairly well done, even if not fair on the acctress, but 7's character also had a lot they could do with her, she was able to evolve, almost like a child, and she was also a very interesting character. so i dont think the replacment was entirely for the sex factor, i think the character of 7 was good, even if the way she was bought in wasn't

Well so is your opinion that she was fired for "not being sexy enough". That's just a rumor and your opinion. Don't come in here talking like things are fact if there is no factual basis. Unless the writers/producer/paramount can be found quoted saying that it was because she wasn't sexy, kindly leave that speculation out of it.

Otherwise, allow everyone else to speak about their OPINIONS without you getting all pissy and and insulting.



Her character sucked, plain and simple. Poll after poll shows that she's the least favorite character on Voyager (sometimes Neelix is worse though). SHe's even mostly voted as the worst character in Star Trek. And that's even lower than Ezri Dax who only had ONE season. Lien had three seasons to make her character interesting, she failed.

I think Nelix should have gone and Kes remained. :allteeth:

I never cared for Kes. SHe looked like a child, but had the voice of a 60 year old smoker.

A little to "soap opera" to me. She might have made a good Borg queen.




Rob

i never ever use the term, but "SNAP!" lol.

Lynx is reminding me of the scary people on TNG boards who love Tasha Yar and profess her to be the best character in Trek history :scared:

She was fired! That's a fact. The comment that she was fired for not being sexy enough is my way of seeing things but I do believe that it's more truth in that than in many of the rumors spread by so called "fans" here and there on the net.

As for "official statements", in my daily work I run into lots of "official statements" which are nothing but downright lies, tried to cover up an unpleasant situation. When The Beatles fired their drummer Pete Best and replaced him with Ringo Starr, the "official statement" was that Pete Best had left "of his own free will". The truth was that he was fired, mostly because the other band members just did like Ringo better as a person but never mind, best was fired. Many years later, John Lennon officially admitted thet they had fired Pete Best and also admitted that they had been very rude by dooing so. So much for "official statements"!

I must also admit that I have made some research in this case and by getting in touch with some inside people I know that Jennifer Lien was fired and Kes written out for the one and single purpose of making room for Jeri Ryan and her character Seven Of Nine.

The opinion that "her character sucked" is your opinion but I do think that it's rude and unpolite to come up with such a comment: I could easily write that Seven sucked, I mean a woman in a catsuit and high heels on a spaceship! It's actually ridiculous. But I avoid to attack Seven in that way because I don't want to insult her fans.

The comment that she's mostly voted as the worst character ever is highly exagerrated. When I look at the polls, I find characters like Wesley Crusher and neelix at the bottom of most polls. When it comes to bad characters, I could easily point out 10-15 weak characters in the different Trek series (including all the "Enterprise" characters) who could be considered as weak, bland and uninteresting (and believe me, Neelix is not among them and Wes Crusher only qualifies for being the weakest TNG character, not counting Pulaski who was only a bad replacement for Beverly Crusher). Besides that, the rude behavior to Kes (and the actress Jennifer Lien) from some "fans", particularily fans of Seven Of Nine have made many fans of the character Kes to stay out of many of the message boards. I know, because as a member of a Kes fan community, many other fans have told me that they no longer visit those message boards because of the "rude morons", slanderes and rumor-spreaders who inhabit those boards.

It's also interesting to see that back in 1997, before Kes was kicked out, nearly all of the criticizm to any character in Star Trek Voyager was aimed at Neelix who many fans did hate for some reason. Other characters who were criticized at those forums were Kim and Janeway, Kim for being bland, Janeway for simply being the captain. Kes was hardly mentioned in those debates. It was first when Kes was kicked out, the pecking on the character and the actress started. So there seems to be a lot of vultures among the Star Trek Voyager fans as well!

Personally I think that Kes is a great character and personally I think that it was WRONG to kick her out.

Kes personified the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore, a spirit which was sadly gone when she was kicked out.

The way the character Kes and the actress Jennifer Lien was treated is nothing but a shame and disgust for Star Trek and Paramount.

Well, I can get real scary when I'm in the right mood! :kungfu:

As for Tasha Yar, what's wrong with her? She was a good character. It was sad that she left.

The point here is that Tasha Yar was written off because the actress Denise Crosby wanted to quit. Kes was written off and jennifer Lien fired because those in charge wanted to "sex up" the show.

you know,... I have to throw out here that MOST of Voyager's characters were weak, I mean Chakotay didn't do anything really, he Tom and Kim were pretty lame most the time, B'Elanna grew slowly somewhat, The Doctor of course grew, Neelix sucks reguardless of how you slice it
and Seven and Janeway really grew, and Tuvok had ok development and a pretty good character

Kes I never liked, and really few people do if you look at all the forums

you can argue that Jeri was added to sex up the show, but you atleast have to admit that she also was able to have a very complex character with great growth, infact she even helped Kim somewhat at first, then she took over his job making him redundant :lol:

I guess the real test here is how much was REALLY changed or effected by the removal of Kes?? the answer is really nothing, her missing didn't really do anything, much like how Tasha being removed didn't really do anything,
vs like say removing Beverly, now you had a motherless Kid and the Picard/Beverly sexual tension was gone
or like say when Jadzia Dax was gone, Worf and many other things were effected by that
Kes leaving didn't really effect anything, meaning in the grand scheme of things she really didn't leave a mark to begin with

The Voyager characters were weak characters? Nonsense! Voyager had the best characters of all the Star Trek series.

Of course Kes's dismissal affected the series. A great character with very much potential was gone. She definitely deserved better than to be thrown away like a piece of trash and then ridiculed, humiliated and destroyed in the worthless episode "Fury".

As for Seven, she made all the other characters redundant. The series was changed from a series about a lost starship with a mixed Starfleet and Maquis crew in the Delta Quadrant to a series about Superwoman vs The Borg.

I don't see Janeway as a Superwoman.

:lol: I'm sorry, but Voyager did NOT have the best Characters of all the Trek series,

TOS, DS9, and TNG are the ones that usually get that title, then Voyager, only because ENT sucked so badly

and the Borg were overdone, I agree, they should have left the borg out of it after gaining seven, it was silly to see them kill the borg queen over and over again when they're just this little ship :rolleyes:
but growth wise the series got better with the addition of Seven of nine,

and I'm sorry, but saying the series was effect by the lose of Kes because they lost a Character with growth potential is silly, because they gained Seven who replaced that "lost" growth potential, so that arguement has been made neutral
Kes didn't effect anything, she was the Doctors helper or whatever as her "job" and she was redundant at that too, there was nothing adversely effected by the loss of Kes

I didn't mean Janeway in this matter, I meant the character who totally took over the series after being brought in in season 4.

I my opinion Voyager did have the best characters.

And I don't think the show got any better when Seven Of Nine took over. Instead of a series with interesting characters and good stories, the focus were put on sex and cheap effects. Besides that, a geat charcter was kicked out to make room for a not so good one.

Voyager lost a lot with Kes. They lost a character with great potential and a character who personified the spirit of Star trek with her will to learn and explore.

i dissagree still. Yeah there was a different feel to the series with Kes not 7, however logically it would be like that. Once 7 arrived the crew were getting used to being stuck in the delta quadrant. they were becoming a family, and they were starting to experiance the journey more than the resolve and have more fun whilst at it rather than constantly just being obsessed with finding routes home.

7 joined the growing family, and as such lots of things had to change, but it also let the family feel as if they could be useful in a different way, to help find 7's humanity again. And also they had a chance to learn so much about the borg. Besides personally i think the scripts from season 4 onwards are better than 4 and below. However there are some episodes before season 4 that i consider in the top 10 of all star trek ever. hehe.

well that's your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but you keep acting like your opinion is fact, and I'm sorry, but your opinion doesn't out weigh the countless polls that almost always place Voyager as the 4th best series, and the polls that always place Kes as one of the worst, and always prove to be in Sevens Favor when the two go head to head

and your arguement has no basis, I don't care if Kes was Federation president or GR reborn in Voyager, the fact is she left, and no one cared, even the CREW didn't care, there was no effects of her loss, the show went on just fine and infact got BETTER,
Tasha had a great potential for growth too, she also has a cult following, one could argue she also had the spirit of trek, BUT she was killed off and no one batted an eyelash, her loss didn't effect the show AT ALL in a negetive way, same with Pulaski, many love her and think she was great and would have been a better Doctor then Beverly, BUT in season 3 of TNG Pulaski was POOF with out explaination, Beverly was back, and the show was in no way effected negetively
Beverly was fired and her loss WAS felt, Wesley had no mother, Picard lost the developing relationship with Beverly that was there in season one, and sick bay got a polar opposite of Beverly CMO
Jadzia was killed off before the last season of DS9, her loss was GREATLY felt in that show being there for 6 seasons
Kes' loss was NOT felt, Neelix had already broken up with her and didn't seem to mind at all in any of the later episodes, the Doctor was already more then able to get along with out Kes, and he got Seven so he wasn't crying, Janeway actually BECAME the great character she is because of Seven!
Seven had a positive impact on the other characters around here
Kes' loss had absolutely NO negetive effects on the characters of the show, meaning you can say whatever you want that's your opinion, but the facts are that Kes' removal didn't hurt the show one bit, and there's no evidence to prove otherwise

^^
There were actually a lot of people who cared when Kes left. The fans of the character did that so much so that some of them stated a letter campaign to have the character re-instated. This campaign resulted in thousands of mails and letter to Paramount. That letter campaign did have some effect on those in charge. But those in charge of the show did respond to that by insulting the fans with the episode "Fury".

The other actors were very upset over how their colleague and friend was treated. If you watch the Season 3 DVD extra, there's an interview with Kate Mulgrew where she cleraly show her dissatisfaction with how Jennifer Lien was kicked out.

If you are referring only to the series and that no one of the characters missed Kes, well that's because those in charge of the show did everything they could to make us forget that the character Kes ever existed. She was never mentioned in any conversation, the Hydroponics Bay which had provided the crew with most of their food sources was turned into a Dracula's den for potential enemies and The Doctor suddenly had no problem to handle the duties in the sickbay without any nurse. If Kes's loss wasn' tfelt, as you suggest, it's only because TIIC wanted us all to forget the character. When that didn't succed, then they tried to make the fans loathe the character by making her as disgusting as possible (which they did in "Fury"). That didn't succed either.

And Voyager didn't become a better show. It became a parody with "miss Sexy" showed in all possible angles.

Kes was agreat character who deserved better than to be dumped and uined the way she was.

maybe at the time some fans were mad, but I've never seen any evidence of that in the polls on multiple trek boards
and sure the cast probably missed her,

BUT the true test of a good character and an irreplacable one is DO they leave a lasting impression? would their absense be noticed in the stories? would their absense be noticed in reguards to the other characters?

the answer is Kes' case is no, the fact that the show as easily able to move on as if she never existed, that she never even needed to be mentioned again and that there wasn't any gap anywhere proves she wasn't as important a part as you're making it seem
if Janeway got yanked do you think it would impact the show? yes, if Chakotay got yanked would it impact? yes, if B'Elanna was pulled would that impact? yes, if Tom or Tuvok were missing? yes, even Kim was more engrained then Kes was, that's WHY she was removed, she was the one character they could remove with out it having an impact on the show in a negetive way,
there was no negetive impact on the show by having Kes vanish forever, Seven quickly and effectively filled ANY gap left in the "Character with growth potential" department

now you hate Seven, and you hate the decision to remove Kes, so this clouds your ability to objectively judge the show, and the fact is, whether you like it not, the show got MUCH better with the removal of Kes and the addition of Seven, Janeway grew ALOT, and became much softer and motherly, and a very likable character, the Doctor grew because now he did everything by him self, he didn't need any helpers, AND he helped Seven grow, and she inturn helped his character grow in many episodes, Kim had a crush of sorts on Seven, and the fact that he was assigned to help Seven at times gave Kim more to do
the list goes on, and while in your OPINION the show is worse because you can't stand Seven, the fact is she had a very positive impact on the show and all the characters growth around her
the Borg fight stories are the only down side to Seven's arrival in that they were a bit over kill sometimes